Curse

snaek · Apr 02, 2009, 05:33 AM // 05:33

so your saying to:
1. spear for adrenaline
2. [shadow fang]
3. [dismember]
4. [protector's strike]
5. stop attacking
6. repeat

????

if your saying [frenzy]+[dash] is a waste of a 2 skill slots....then wouldn't [warrior's endurance] be an even bigger waste of a skill slot?

valence · Apr 02, 2009, 06:23 AM // 06:23

tbh, the skills you mentioned (besides wild blow which has a niche roll, but not needed that match) frenzy is still better.

0.66 faster deepwound is sweet, less reaction time for monks. every infuse casted that just didnt got through, cause the target died in the 0.25 casting time. less time to catch a spike = good, no matter what.

mind shock kd's, if one monk is down you have 2 sec of frenzy'ing, another niche roll but noteworthy, as it did happen.

besides that mitch gave a very good reason as well. increasing guild lord damage, which is important (3 finals whent to 28)

Reverend Dr · Apr 02, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

0.66 faster deep wound is sweet, less reaction time for monks. every infuse cast that just didn't got through, cause the target died in the 0.25 casting time. less time to catch a spike = good, no matter what.

Burst of Aggression. Again no reason to use Frenzy. Its part liability and requires a second skill as cancel so its terrible for bar compression.

Quote:

besides that mitch gave a very good reason as well. increasing guild lord damage, which is important (3 finals went to 28)

Only decent reason I've heard so far. Then again if you are getting into a lord race with a gimmicky build that isn't designed to lord race, you probably should rethink your tactics.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Apr 02, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Burst of Aggression. Again no reason to use Frenzy. Its part liability and requires a second skill as cancel so its terrible for bar compression.

You kinda want a speedboost anyway, and that bar really doesn't need any bar compression anyway.

Reverend Dr · Apr 03, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

A speedboost amidst a bunch of teleports isn't really needed. Unless you split. Which if you are going to split (even reactionary) you should just run something completely different.

Cantehman · Apr 03, 2009, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Let's use teleports for adrenaline building!

Also, BoA is quite retarded, seeing as you lose adrenaline, which lowers the overall spike rate.

lord of shadow · Apr 03, 2009, 01:02 PM // 13:02

People bring warriors because deepwound recharges really fast on them.

Frenzy makes the deepwound recharge faster, and also happens to make the spike a bit faster.

Why is there a thread about this?

Killed u man · Apr 03, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of shadow

People bring warriors because deepwound recharges really fast on them.

Frenzy makes the deepwound recharge faster, and also happens to make the spike a bit faster.

Why is there a thread about this?

You're still suck to the recharges of the skills on your partymembers... Getting a 5 seconds recharge on dismember or a 3 second recharge doesn't matter.

I'm pretty sure that 1 dismember + prot strike does 600 damage, mirite?

It's not about the W/A bar, it's about the team build. The team build simply doesn't require the W/A to have Frenzy. There is so much better options out there. Even Signet of Strenght would do more really...

snaek · Apr 03, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

lol @ [[signet of strength]
like you said, its a team-spike that already does ~600+ dmg. theres no reason to add anymore spike dmg to it--it would be overkill.

imo the current build as-is allows for decent versatility.
plus i don't know if you play warrior or not...but its incredibly annoying to play one without an ias and/or ims. even if its a pure spike build, it still feels 'off'.

you still never answered my question that if the build were to be played in your style, isn't [[warrior's endurance] a waste of an elite slot? especially since you said the warrior should spear for adrenaline, and it only works with melee attacks.

so what would you recommend for the elite?

Killed u man · Apr 03, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

lol @ [[signet of strength]
like you said, its a team-spike that already does ~600+ dmg. theres no reason to add anymore spike dmg to it--it would be overkill.

imo the current build as-is allows for decent versatility.
plus i don't know if you play warrior or not...but its incredibly annoying to play one without an ias and/or ims. even if its a pure spike build, it still feels 'off'.

you still never answered my question that if the build were to be played in your style, isn't [[warrior's endurance] a waste of an elite slot? especially since you said the warrior should spear for adrenaline, and it only works with melee attacks.

so what would you recommend for the elite?

Augury, Prot Strike, Shadow Fang, Dash, etc will hurt on energy without WE.

Ex Death · Apr 03, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

There is so much better options out there.

Care to elaborate? And no, signet of strength doesn't count because it's a piece of shit.

Phe Belladona · Apr 03, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

dash is important to the build, so you're not using 2 slots anyway. but im not sure why you wouldnt want the frenzy, you have a ranger and warrior so its possible aegis, guardian and warding will slow your adren building plus they might have FAINTHEARTEDNESS eeep have fun w/o frenzy - your removals may be busy or they could have overkill hexes. also they might just have any anti melee skill (obviously discounting empathy and spirit shackles here :P think more the usual, blurred bsurge steam)which is reduced in effectiveness the more tries you get attacking before its removed or between its recharge.

i see your point that it doesnt look a lot but i've yet to see a suggestion for a single skill that would be better than reducing antiadrenbuilding skills (apart from the butterflies!!!) by 33% and giving a sharper spike. it is just a single skill you're replacing cause you will have dash in there for definite.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 05, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

WTF is [shadow fang] supposed to do ?

Phe Belladona · Apr 05, 2009, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

WTF is [shadow fang] supposed to do ?

the "shadow step to target foe" bit not giving you any thoughts on how useful it is for a spike build on the 1 melee char? its used over other shadow steps cause it doesnt have an aftercast at the other end, and WE can power the energy cost.

snaek · Apr 05, 2009, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by killed u man

Augury, Prot Strike, Shadow Fang, Dash, etc will hurt on energy without WE.

1. you said to take out [[dash] as well.
2. you said to spear, thus not triggering [[warrior's endurance], except for the 2hits during spikes.
3. you said not to pressure, so [[protector's strike] is only used once every spike.
4. i agree that [[shadow fang] is quite expensive...but its only every 45secs.
5. if [[eviscerate] warriors can spam [[bull's strike] + [[shock], i'm not sure [[augury of death] + [[protector's strike] will be a problem.

Killed u man · Apr 05, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

1. you said to take out [[dash] as well.
2. you said to spear, thus not triggering [[warrior's endurance], except for the 2hits during spikes.
3. you said not to pressure, so [[protector's strike] is only used once every spike.
4. i agree that [[shadow fang] is quite expensive...but its only every 45secs.
5. if [[eviscerate] warriors can spam [[bull's strike] + [[shock], i'm not sure [[augury of death] + [[protector's strike] will be a problem.

Evisc doesn't spam Shock + Bull's, bad Evis do. (Ok, shockanyways), and even then Using bull's on recharge requires you to go on Zealous set, which is unfavorable in a spike build.

And yes I'm pretty sure you COULD pull off the build withouth WE, didn't try and tough, and CBA crunching the numbers, but from the looks of it, prot strike every 6-7 seconds, augury every 20, Shadowfang every 45, calculated in pips, it's about 3.5 pips on the top of my head. With a Warrior having 2, you're still going to have issues with a zealous set.

As I said, you COULD pull it off tough...

Anyways, I'm not here to discuss the usage of WE, imo, in these builds, you're better of with an A/P alltogether anyways (Can't be blinded, auto crits, etc)

I'm just talking about Frenzy on a spike bar. As I said, you don't put [Life Siphon] (Which in fact is a nice skill on the right bar) in a bspike build.

Frenzy is nice once you're steaming rolling them, but on the actual spike it really doesn't offer as much as a dblow, Dstrike, Disruption dagger (Interrupt the aegis, no more no-adrenaline-cuz-of-aegis issues), etc...

Reverend Dr · Apr 05, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

This type of WE warrior isn't a warrior. It is a high armor caster with point blank deepwound and elite energy management.

It is as much of a traditional warrior as dervish or sins are. It is about as much of a warrior as spirit's strength rits or illusionary weapon mesmers are. Using arguments along the lines of "this works in normal warrior builds" for this particular build are along the same lines as using "this works in EQ and WoW" to justify tank and spank in PvE.

snaek · Apr 05, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

the [[eviscerate] analogy was strictly for energy usage comparisons, not playstyle comparisons. and no i didn't mean "spam", like spam on recharge (i apologize for my word choice). i'm merely saying the energy usage of [[bull's strike] + [[shock] will be similar to energy usage of [[augury of death] + [[protector's strike], regardless of differences in recharge time or not.

i agree that you might as well use a/p for this team spike. so why would u want to use a w/a over a/p then? i'd say because of [[frenzy] (and overall general versatility [[warrior's endurance] builds provide).

Apok Omen · Apr 06, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

[build prof=Warrior/Assassin][Dismember][Protector's Strike][Warrior's Endurance][Frenzy][Dash][Augury of Death][Shadow Fang][Resurrection Signet][/build]

[Wild Blow], as a quick remove stance in case a ranger throws of Lightening. (Farfetched, but I can still see it being usefull)
I could also see this working, but ever since tactics stances were nerfed, stance removal has lost its place in theory-crafting
[Distracting Strike]
It used to be good, but now it's just terrible compared to Dblow
[Distracting Blow]
Best choice for match-making interrupt
[Shadow Walk]
I really don't see the point in bringing this. Now that attack skills are disabled for 1 second after you tele with this, it's a poor choice for a second tele skill. By comparison, Dark Prison/Deaths Charge is better
[Disrupting Dagger]
Good for an unmissable interrupt
[Lift Enchantment]
Pain Of Disenchant is the only real disenchant you need. But if an important enchant (SB, PS, SoA even) is on your target on PoD is recharging, then it's a nice choice
etc...

You make some valid points, Borat. But as people have said, Frenzy is there for either a quicker DW+ProtStrike, Lord dmg, or even quicker adrenal buildup. If people wanted to bring another utility skill, they would.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 06, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

the "shadow step to target foe" bit not giving you any thoughts on how useful it is for a spike build on the 1 melee char? its used over other shadow steps cause it doesnt have an aftercast at the other end, and WE can power the energy cost.

I know how useful shadowsteps are on a melee character (death's charge = hammer kills), but the 10 second delay + 45sec cooldown makes it seem like a kind of useless skill.

Is there a link to the full team build on pvx or something ?